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anothersiteOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 16, 2007 - 06:33 PM



Joined: May 07, 2006
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Background: "Sailor" Tom Sharkey lost a 20 round decision to James J. Jeffries May 6, 1898. Bob Fitzsimmons lost his heavyweight title by 11th round knockout to James J. Jeffries June 9, 1899.

Replay background: Fitzsimmons elected to defend his title against Sharkey 5'8" 185 lbs. in spring 1898 rather than the relative giant Jeffries, despite Sharkey entering the bout with a record of 28 (27 OK), 0 losses, and 5 draws.

Result: Sharkey T2 (18.5 pts.) Fitzsimmons R0/1, P24/7.5, N2,2/0, C&I0/0. Time 2:50 of the second round.

Dice details: Data Boxing Gameboard says that technically Sharkey scored a KO since he scored 2 over Fitzsimmons' TKO resistance points: "Falls down, KO." I am reporting a TKO for details sake. Of note, Sharkey was Power 2(-2),8(-1) for this fight. It is the only difference from his paper card that I have. (I would love to understand where these subtle rating changes are coming from, but it is probably just "new data.") So, Fizsimmons was stopped by Sharkey in his own weak power round!

Another note, Sharkey is N2 SR S. Sharkey scored first knockdown on his exchange count going from 3 to 2. Knockdown took exchange count to 1. Sharkey has one exchange for N2 SR S to be in effect for the whole fight. Sharkey had 6 down and 11 rolled for total 17 that scored offensive N2 even without N2 SR S! Fitzsimmons, of course, failed his defensive power roll. (I do not routinely use advanced strategies like Clinch or Jab that Fitzsimmons has available on his card.)
 
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anothersiteOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 17, 2007 - 10:17 PM



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Background: Tom Sharkey never won the heavyweight title though he fought James J. Jeffries for the World Heavyweight Title November 3, 1899. Sharkey lost a hard fought 25 round decision. Sharkey lost a 20 round non-title decision to Jeffries May 6, 1898.

Joe Goddard was a good fighter, but he was on his way down starting in 1898. According to BoxRec, Goddard's final career record was W 31 (29 KO), L 13 (+ 3 news), D 8 (+ 2 news) in 60 total bouts. Goddard held The Barrier Heavyweight Title starting starting in 1989 and later Australian Heavyweight Title until losing by knockout to Harry Laing January 1, 1894. Interestingly, Goddard won the Vacant South African Heavyweight Title August 31, 1895 over the same man that he defeated for The Barrier Heavyweight Title in 1989: Owen Sullivan. It does not look like Goddard ever fought for the World Heavyweight Title. Goddard did fight most everyone that most of us have ever heard of: Jeffries, Sharkey, Jeffries, Kid McCoy, Choynski, etc.

Replay background: Sharkey elected to defend his title against Goddard in July 1898 after Goddard knocked out Peter Maher in one round May 1898, though Goddard had lost his 3 previous fights, including KO by Sharkey and TKO by Jeffries. Needless to day the gate was poor since Goddard was on the way down. Goddard entered the bout with 30-6-7 record.

Result: Sharkey T11(12 pts.) Goddard R4/6, P36/25, N11/8, C&I1/0. Time 0:43 of the 11th round. So much for an easy fight. Wink
 
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anothersiteOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 20, 2007 - 09:05 PM



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Background: "Sailor" Tom Sharkey lost 20 round non-title bout May 1898 and 25 round Heavweight Title bout November 1899 to "The Boilermaker" James J. Jeffries. So, Sharkey pretty much held is own against Jeffries despite Sharkey being 5'8" and 185 lbs. vs. Jeffries being 6'2" 215 lbs. (Big_City should appreciate Sharkey's "fight." Wink ) In reality, Bob Fitzsimmons was champion and lost by knockout to Jeffries June 9, 1899.

Replay background: After the box office dud with Joe Goddard, Sharkey needed a good payday. Sharkey defended his title on June 9, 1899 against the undefeated but twice tied Jeffries. They have not fought before this bout.

Result: Sharkey W25 Jeffries R15/10, 53/45, N0/0, C&I4/0.

Dice details: Sharkey rolled a terrific fight. The first offensive 16 roll INJ matched defensively for Jeffries, so Jeffries's frequent INJ2 activated and Sharkey scored INJ2 three straight times before not matching an INJ. Sharkey even scored a 5 point TKO power blow!

Sharkey's rather "odd" card was a bit frustrating to watch as one 4 and six 17 rolls did not degenerate any Jeffries defensive power rolls, since Sharkey only has power N2 on these numbers and they had not activated yet.

Jeffries was done in by a putrid stretch of rounds from 13 to 20. He scored only a half point over those 8 rounds! Jeffries had scored 40 points by round 20, which was just below Sharkey's TKO rating.

This bout is the first Replay bout to go to a decision. Jeffries will probably get a rematch, at some point.
 
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anothersiteOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 21, 2007 - 10:01 PM



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Background: "Sailor" Tom Sharkey lost a 25 round decision for Heavyweight Title to James J. Jeffries November 3, 1899. Joe Choynski was a solid fighter who never fought for the World Heavyweight Title. (In today's era, he would have probably fought as a super middleweight or light heavyweight.) He was San Francisco Bay Area rival of James J. Corbett. (For those you who recall hearing or reading or even seeing the Errol Flynn movie Gentleman Jim (1942) about Corbett's "barge" fight that fight was in 1889 with Choynski. Corbett won by 27 round TKO.) For some reason, Choynski fought Joe Goddard for the Australian Heavyweight Title in 1891 and lost by knockout in round 4.

Replay background: In real life, Sharkey fought Jeffries November 3, 1899 and Choynski fought Tom (Jabber) Carey November 4, 1899. Skarkey needed a new opponent since Jeffries lost in Sharkey's last fight earlier in 1899. Choynski entered this November 1899 Title bout bout with a solid record of 40-8-6.

Result: Sharkey T2(16 N pts.) Choynski R1/0, P20.5/5.5, N1,1,2,2/0, C&I0/0. Time 0:55 of the second round.

Dice details and Trivia: Sharkey's hot streak continues. Mid first round offensive 16 yielded N that Choynski matched defensively. Choynski actually scored 5.5 pints in the first round and had a lower exchange count when the knockdowns started. Sharkey rolled 13 for second knockdown as he is N2 SR S and Choynski is N2 W. In round 2, Sharkey rolled twice with two dice then one die down and got 17 and 16 for N2 and N with Choynski N2 W each time. Choynski never had an offensive turn in which to use the P2(-2) that Sharkey has.

The unusally high 4 knockdown total (without Joe Grim in the bout) happened because all knockdowns were only worth 4 points. Counts were 4, 2, 0, and 2.

For nostalgia's sake, I used Choynski's boxer card that I copied from Table Top Sports over 25 years ago when DRDATABOX gave it away in the magazine with a brief writeup about the work involved in rating Choynski. The only change in the DB6 PC card is P3(+1). Choynski never saw the third round. I feel kind of sorry for him. Sad

An interesting side benefit of this Replay series is that it has finally dawned on me that modern boxing really did blossom on the frontier: Australia and San Francisco. I am from the San Francisco Bay Area, so I know that we are still relatively new in world history but I thought by the 1890s we were not that "frontier." I guess I was wrong.
 
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anothersiteOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 22, 2007 - 10:44 PM



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Background: In 1900, "The Boilermaker" James J. Jeffries defended his Title by KO 1 Jack Finnegan April 6 and KO 23 James J. Corbett May 11. I guess that April bout was not too rough for Jeffries. Ruhlin was knocked in 11 by Jeffries in November 15, 1901 World Title bout.

Tom Sharkey fought Gus Ruhlin three times: June 29, 1898 Sharkey KO 1, June 26, 1900 Ruhlin KO 15, and June 25, 1902 Ruhlin KO 11. Ruhlin stood 6'2" to Sharkey's 5'8". Both weighed 185 libs..

Replay background: Sharkey needed a bout in 1900. Finnegan was literally not available. (I found not DB6 PC boxer card.) Corbett could be a good match later in the year. Ruhlin enters this June 26, 1900 Title bout with a 17-4-2 record.

Results: Ruhlin W25 Sharkey R18/7, P84/40, N0/2, C&I2/1.

Comments: Rule 11 in "How to Send in Your Results" for dice Data Boxing is "Do not write a description or tell what a great bout it was; the data will show what happened." Will it ever, because Sharkey's dice luck ran out after round 2. Still, it is fun writing things up since I am learning some boxing history. Hopefully, someone is learning something as well.

BTW, Sharkey is the first champion to lose the Replay Title by decision.


Last edited by anothersite on Jun 23, 2007 - 05:42 PM; edited 1 time in total
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 23, 2007 - 10:28 AM



Joined: Mar 19, 2006
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anothersite wrote:


BTW, Sharkey is the first champion to lose the Replay Title by decision.


Very interesting "alternate reality" replay project. I was surprised that Jeffries lost to Sharkey in your hypothetical replay, but it could have happened. Sharkey was a good fighter.

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"So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I fight to win. I'm not just shadow-boxing or playing around." (I Cor. 9:26)
 
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DRDATABOXOffline
Post subject: T.Sharkey/Writeups  PostPosted: Jun 23, 2007 - 03:45 PM



Joined: Apr 28, 2006
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1- Thanks for bringing back the near great Tom Sharkey.
2- Write up all you want. Those instructions were for when I had to read, edit and report them, circa 1976 for Gamecraft. Remember I still haven't written up Millard Well's second historical HW replay from back then!
 
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anothersiteOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 24, 2007 - 01:16 PM



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Background: "The Boilermaker" James J. Jeffries was Champion. He defended his Title by KO/TKO vs. Jack Finnegan April 1900, James J. Corbett May 1900 and Gus Ruhlin November 1901. Corbett put on a legendary boxing display despite losing the Title bout by 23rd round knockout, so he earned the right to be knocked out by Jeffries August 1903 in the tenth round.

In the first half of 1900, Gus Ruhlin won all 4 of his bouts against Fred Kapp, Jack Finnegan, Yank Kenny and Tom Sharkey.

Replay background: Ruhlin is Champion and making his first defense after putting on a surprisingly brilliant boxing exhibition against Sharkey June 26, 1900. Corbett has boxed his way back into Title contention. He will challenge Ruhlin in late Summer 1900.

Result: Ruhlin W25 Corbett R14/11, P63.5/32.5, N0/16, C&I0/4.

Die details and comments: Unfortunately, Corbett entered the bout with reduced efficiency. 30 TKO rating was used. Looking at Corbett's career, I wonder if his peak card should start in 1889 but I am not sure when it should end, and if Corbett should have a past peak card, since he has so few bouts: W 12 (5 KO) - L 4 - D 4 with 2 NC. I am not sure that Corbett did enough in this bout to warrant another Replay Title bout.

BTW, Tom Sharkey was on his way down by mid 1900 until his last bout in 1904. His record over that span was 1-5-0 with one NC when the referee stopped the bout for lack of action. I wonder is Sharkey should have a DB peak card from 1895 to 1900 and a DB past peak card from 1900 to 1904. It strikes me that if Sharkey had won his November 1899 Title bout against Jeffries that Sharkey would have a DB past peak card.

Ruhlin lost sixth round knockout to Bob Fitzsimmons August 10, 1900. Ruhlin's next Replay Title defense will be against Fitzsimmons in Fall 1900.
 
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anothersiteOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 26, 2007 - 09:54 PM



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Background: In reality James J. Jeffries was Champion, and Ruhlin lost by knockout to Bob Fitzsimmons in August 1900.

Replay background: Ruhlin has not developed a following with all these Title bout decisions. The fans want more action. Hopefully, Fitzsimmons will provide some action as he tries to be the first boxer to reclaim the Title.

Result: Ruhlin T3 (14.5 pts.) Fitzsimmons R0/2, P21/25.5, N3,3/0, C&I0/2. Time 2:51 of the third round.

Dice details and comments: After not exciting the Replay fans with decisions to win and then defend the Title, Ruhlin definitely won the fans with this action packed bout. I start reducing TKO resistance at 1/3 TKO rating as in oldtime DB, unlike DB6 PC, so when Fitzsimmons scored 16.5 points in the first round with Ruhlin's TKO rating of 36, Fitzsimmons came within a half point of points TKO in the first round. In the third round, Ruhlin scored a knockdown so his N2 SR S activated and Fitzsimmons's poor N2 played out.

"Ruby" Bob was a great middleweight. To go with his World Middleweight and Heavyweight Title's, Bob won the newly developed Light Heavyweight Title in 1903 at age 40!
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 27, 2007 - 12:03 AM



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anothersite wrote:


"Ruby" Bob was a great middleweight. To go with his World Middleweight and Heavyweight Title's, Bob won the newly developed Light Heavyweight Title in 1903 at age 40!


Wow! Fitzsimmons was the "Methuselah" of boxing in the early 1900s when he won a title!

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"So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I fight to win. I'm not just shadow-boxing or playing around." (I Cor. 9:26)
 
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anothersiteOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 27, 2007 - 10:42 PM



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Background: "The Boilmaker" James J. Jeffries defended his World Heavyweight Title against Gus Ruhlin by fifth round TKO in November 1901 when Ruhlin quit after being thrown against the ropes, claiming "foul fighting."- The Los Angeles Times http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=010813

Replay background: Ruhlin is the Champion. After an active 1900 (winning Title and 2 successful defenses), Ruhlin did not defend his Title again until November 1901 against Jeffries. Smile

Result: Jeffries T21 (14 N pts.) Ruhlin R13/7, P85/27.5, N6,16,21/1, C&I3/1. Time 0:23 of the 21st round.

Dice details: I have not used Jeffries much over the years, so I can honestly say that this bout is very likely the first time that his offensive N3 and K2 S ever activated for me. Very impressive when it happens, of course.

Ruhlin had a great first round, scoring a knockdown and 12 of his total 27.5 points. It was all down hill from there. Most of his other won rounds were obviously by minimal margins. Ruhlin is the classic example of why I like to stage single bouts rather series of 100s, etc. While the series have there place for determining the all-time best, it is fun to see a guy like Ruhlin catch a little lightening in the bottle and be champion, even if it is for a short time. Smile


Last edited by anothersite on Jun 30, 2007 - 10:08 PM; edited 1 time in total
 
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anothersiteOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 30, 2007 - 10:07 PM



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Background: James J. Jeffries defended his Title against "Ruby" Bob Fitzsimmons in 1902, "Gentleman Jim" James J. Corbett in 1903 and Jack Munroe in 1904. Jeffries then retired until coming back to get knocked out by Jack Johnson in 1910.

Replay background: Fitzsimmons and Corbett have already lost during bouts to regain the Title. Their careers are done. It is not yet Munroe's time. Jeffries first defense will be in summer 1902 against Jack Root, who enters this bout with a record of 39-0-1 with 28 KOs. Jeffries is 6'2", 225 lbs. and Root is 5'10", 171 lbs. In real life, Root won 10 round decision over Charles Kid McCoy April 22, 1903 in a bout that is generally recognized as being the first World Light Heavyweight Title contest.

Result: Jeffries K2 Root R1/0, P10.5/3, N0/0, C&I2/0. Time 2:57 of the second round.

Dice details and comments: Jack Root is a pretty good light heavyweight. His heavyweight card is defensive KO W, which is VERY not conducive to winning many fights.

I have to admit that in reviewing Jeffries's career I am not very impressed by his competition, and I am puzzled why he is considered by some to be an all-time great. He beat Fizsimmons, a 36 year-old middleweight for the Heavyweight Title. Jeffries defended against once against Fitzsimmons and twice against a very past peak Corbett. Jeffries also defended against Gus Ruhlin 22-7-4 and Jack Munroe 12-3-3. Jeffries defended against Jack Finnegan, career record 1-3-2 with 1 KO and no DB card. Jeffries won 20 and 25 round decisions over Tom Sharkey, who was probably better during those bouts than anyone else that Jeffries fought. It is not just that Jeffries did so well against these boxers, but they did not bring much current excellence into the ring.

Reviewing Jeffries's career has also gotten me very curious about how a Tom Sharkey peak card from 1896 to 1899 or even 1900 would look.
 
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Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 01, 2007 - 07:03 PM



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Background: According to BoxRec, "The Iron Man" Joe Grim (Saverio Giannone http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=10815) had a career record of W 4 (4 ko's) (+ 2 news) | L 41 (+ 50 news) | D 5 (+ 4 news) | Total 113. He was a middleweight, but he fought heavyweights. He fought Jack Johnson July 24, 1905. Grim only lost by KO 3 times and TKO once. He mostly was knocked down in 6 rounders. Great write-up http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Fight:597028

Replay background: Jeffries needed an opponent. Johnson will not be Champion in 1905. When I began this replay, I stated that everyone who had a card would fight for the Title. I won't go that far, but Jeffries will have a 6 round non-title match July 4, 1902 weekend with Grim.

Result "adjusted": Jeffries W6 Grim R5/1, P118/5.5, N2,3,3,3,4,4,4,4,5,5,5,5,6,6,6,6/0, C&I2/0. Time 2:59 of the sixth round originally reported. The crowd was disappointed by the stoppage, but the police moved in stop the carnage. Addendum: Grim's manager did not like the TKO result because it was bad for business and complained to the Boxing Commission. The Commission found a time keeping error in the last round, so the scheduled 6 rounder should have already been stopped when the police intervened. Decision becomes W6 for Jeffries. Everyone went out to have a beer to celebrate. Grim's manager was buying. Wink

Dice details and comments adjusted: Jeffries is N3 S. Grim is N W with TKO rating of 150. There were going to be a lot of knockdowns. Jeffries scored 10 4 points knockdowns and 6 5 point knockdowns.

In rounds 4, 5, and 6, Jeffries scored 28.5 points each and every round. Grim had no offensive exchanges in these three rounds.

In case it is not obvious, Grim won round 1. He scored 3.5 points to Jeffries's 1 point.

FYI, I will probably not be posting any more matches for about a week. I have to go help with a sick relative.

Addendum: I am clearly distracted. I scored Jeffries's 16 offensive rolls as 4 point scores rather than 3. Grim is B defensive power and Jeffries is B offensive power. Offensive 16 scores 3 for Jeffries.

The bigger problem was that I treated Jeffries as N2 S not N3 S. Thankfully, Grim's power -6 rating for rounds 1-10 makes it easy to recreate die rolls. I also had two 6s down and was just rolling one die after the first knockdown. The original second knockdown never should have happened. The offensive roll totaled 14. Thankfully, the very next roll totaled 16 so N2 happened. Then N3 S kicked in leading to just one less knockdown in round 2 than previously reported and everything else played out as previously reported except Grim just barely survived, which made Grim's manager happy. Smile BTW, I used 9 exchange rounds for all 6 rounds, which became 7 with Jeffries's -2 pace rating then 8 with Aggression after knockdown.


Last edited by anothersite on Jul 02, 2007 - 12:03 AM; edited 1 time in total
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 01, 2007 - 09:11 PM



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anothersite wrote:
Replay background: Jeffries needed an opponent. Johnson will not be Champion in 1905. When I began this replay, I stated that everyone who had a card would fight for the Title. I won't go that far, but Jeffries will have a 6 round non-title match July 4, 1902 weekend with Grim.

Result: Jeffries T6 (75 N pts.) Grim R5/1, P129/5.5, N2,2,3,3,3,4,4,4,4,5,5,5,5,6,6,6,6/0, C&I2/0. Time 2:59 of the sixth round. The crowd was disappointed by the stoppage, but the police moved in stop the carnage..


Wow! Grim could take a massive beating! Interesting replay and background information about Grimm.


anothersite wrote:

FYI, I will probably not be posting any more matches for about a week. I have to go help with a sick relative.


Sorry to hear about your relative. Hope your relative is feeing better soon.

_________________
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anothersiteOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jul 02, 2007 - 12:08 AM



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Big_City wrote:
Wow! Grim could take a massive beating! Interesting replay and background information about Grimm.

Yeah. And DB got it right. I did not have to use any funny/special rules or ratings like giving Grim a high control rating to limit his opponent's offensive attacks, as I have seen other boxing games do. Very impressive.

Big_City wrote:
Sorry to hear about your relative. Hope your relative is feeing better soon.
Thank you for the kind words. "See" you folks in a week.
 
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