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FrankCOffline
Post subject: Joe  PostPosted: Oct 16, 2011 - 10:07 AM



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While I respect the record and career of Joe he seem to drag out his time in the ring. From 1902-4 he was 9-8-1. He suffered several KO's in those losses. Also in 5 of the 9 wins his opponents had a combined 27-21 record. I don't dispute the greatness of Joe Choynski and the iron in his fists yet I continue to wonder what went wrong in his last few years.
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: Joe Choynski  PostPosted: Oct 16, 2011 - 01:01 PM



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Joe Choynski fought in an era of ring legends where one fighter could beat the other on any given day. To quote an article by Tracy Callis:

Pardy (Apr 1936 p 16) wrote, "Many instances could be quoted of Choynski's gameness under fire, of his cleverness, endurance, and intelligence both inside and outside the ropes. The truth is he lived in an age of formidable heavyweights, so formidable that only a fighter of rare genius could have attained the position he did among them. What a sensation a second edition of Joe Choynski would create in modern ring circles."

Click here to read the complete article entitled JOE CHOYNSKI --"CLEVER, SHIFTY, AND EXPLOSIVE".

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"So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I fight to win. I'm not just shadow-boxing or playing around." (I Cor. 9:26)
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: Re: Norton vs. Langford  PostPosted: Oct 20, 2012 - 01:27 PM



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Big_City wrote:
Big_City wrote:
ROCKY MARCIANO VS. SAM LANGFORD

200 Bout Series Using Data Boxing 6.0

In my latest heavyweight rankings using Data Boxing 6.0, I listed Rocky Marciano and Sam Langford in a tie for the number 10 ranking because I did not have a significant result in several head to head matchups using the Data Boxing series test set for 100 computer-simulated fights. Therefore, as a tiebreaker, I ran a 200 bout series. I had the following results:

Marciano-Langford: 100-96-4; 29-39 KOs, 30-8 TKOs

Comment: Although Marciano held a slight edge, statistically this result is considered a toss-up. Nevertheless, on the basis of Marciano's razor thin advantage in this particular series, Marciano is currently ranked as the #10 heavyweight with Langford at #11 in my all time heavyweight rankings.


KEN NORTON VS. SAM LANGFORD

All Time HW Rankings Matchup Using Data Boxing

Ken Norton illustrated in his book (Going the Distance) that the margin between success over failure is a very fine line. This principle of success is also illustrated in Norton's favorite book, Think and Grow Rich. Likewise, in my Data Boxing 6.0 all time heavyweight rankings project, there are a number of specific instances where the difference in the rankings for individual boxers is not based on significant results achieved, but rather extremely close head to head results. For example, Rocky Marciano's razor-thin advantage in a 200 bout series versus Sam Langford earned Rocky a current #10 ranking in my Data Boxing project (see previous post). As for Norton's ranking (#12), Norton and Langford duked it out in 100 computer-simulated fights to determine who would be ranked #11 in my all time heavyweight rankings (again, these rankings are temporary and subject to change based on continuing Data Boxing replays). Indeed, the difference between victory over defeat between Norton and Langford is a very fine line. The Norton-Langford series was set to terminate early if a significant result was achieved. The series went the distance and statistically Norton-Langford is a toss-up. Nonetheless, Langford is now ranked #11 on the basis of 1% more wins than Norton in this extremely close series. Of course, the very close margin of victory over defeat for this series means that Norton and Langford will be duking it out again in the Data Boxing world as I continue to stage bouts to determine my own rankings. The results for the above Norton-Langford series are as follows:

Langford-Norton: 48-47-5; 10-6 KOs, 0-0 TKOs, 37-39 UDs, 0-2 MDs, 1-0 SDs

Note: The HW subclasses option was enabled to account for the size difference between Norton, at 220 and Langford at 180.

Coming up next: Ten addtional heavyweights will join the rankings. I will list my top 35 all time heavyweights as well as my current top 25 which is subject to change based on my analysis of continuing Data Boxing 6.0 replays.

P.S. Besides being fun to play, Data Boxing is educational. I am continuing to learn alot about the history of boxing through my Data Boxing replays to determine my own all time heavyweight rankings.


My All Time Heavyweight Rankings: Ken Norton now ranked No. 11

In a battle for the No. 11 spot in my all time heavyweight rankings, Ken Norton edged Sam Langford in a 100 bout series. The Heavyweight Sub-Classes option was invoked to account for the significant size advantage for the 6' 3 220-pound Norton over the 5' 7 180-pound Langford. I had the following results:

Norton-Langford: 50 - 47 - 3; 4 - 12 KO, 0 - 0 TKO

P.S. As noted previously, statistically Norton-Langford is a toss-up. All the same, Norton is now ranked #11 on the basis of edging
Langford in this extremely close series.

P.P.S. See my Ken Norton update at my website which discusses an article that states that Norton is considered a top 10 heavyweight by many ring observers.

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"So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I fight to win. I'm not just shadow-boxing or playing around." (I Cor. 9:26)
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: Re: All-Time Heavyweight Rankings Using Data Boxing  PostPosted: Apr 16, 2014 - 09:11 PM



Joined: Mar 19, 2006
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Big_City wrote:
SPOTLIGHT ON JOE CHOYNSKI

As I’ve stated before, the Data Boxing simulation game definately has the fun factor and is also educational - I continue to learn about the whole history of boxing as I play this scientific boxing simulation. My current Data Boxing project to determine my own top 50 all-time heavyweights has brought Joe Choynski to my attention (I currently have Choynski, a boxer whose career was from 1888-1904, rated at #40 in my all-time heavyweight rankings.) I had not known much about Choynski before his impressive showing in the Data Boxing world. I looked up Choynski’s bio at BoxRec and I can see why he can scrap with the best of them in the Data Boxing world - Choynski beat the great Jack Johnson in 1901 and he fought to a draw with the great Jim Jeffries! Here is a link to Choynski’s bio and record at BoxRec…

http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/Joe_Choynski

P.S. Speaking of Joe Choynski ‘s impressive performance in the Data Boxing world, I have an article which appeared in All Sports Digest in the early 1980s, which lauded Data Boxing and discussed Joe Choynski’s Data Boxing ratings. The above-mentioned article, written by Howard Hauer, states that Dr. Julian Compton, the creator of Data Boxing, spent over $600 in researching Joe Choynski to determine his Data Boxing ratings. In praising Data Boxing for its accuracy, Mr. Hauer cited Dr. Compton's research of Choynski's Data Boxing card as an example of the all-round effort and tremendous research that goes into Data Boxing.


DRDATABOX wrote:
THOSE WERE THE DAYS.
(Long response deleted by site.)
Programer Don Mankowski likes Choynski a lot. Either one or both is at least half Polish, maybe 100%. Don will have to clarify.



DonMankowski wrote:
I can't even pronounce his name! (I've heard everything from Sho-win-ski to Hoyns-key.) But he didn't appear in the first DB set, only in Table Top Sports (in a great article re Julian Compton's research), and I was careful to include him in my implementation. I did use his name as a password for awhile.


SPOTLIGHT ON DATA BOXING...

Go to my website to read the article noted above by Howard Hauer.

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"So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I fight to win. I'm not just shadow-boxing or playing around." (I Cor. 9:26)
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: Eric Jorgensen's article on all-time heavyweight rankings  PostPosted: Aug 01, 2014 - 10:00 AM



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I recommend Eric Jorgensen's excellent article entitled History's Greatest Heavyweights that appeared in the February 2000 issue of the Cyber Boxing Zone:

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/box2-00.htm#hw

P.S. Jorgensen's article contains Data Boxing's 1978 All-Time Heavyweight Ratings by Dr. Julian Compton.

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"So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I fight to win. I'm not just shadow-boxing or playing around." (I Cor. 9:26)
 
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FrankCOffline
Post subject: boxing  PostPosted: Aug 01, 2014 - 12:11 PM



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Jorgensen's article is probably as accurate as you can get when rating boxers from one era to another. I think his Big 3 is hard to dispute. Dempsey, Louis and Ali took on all comers. Louis who has been criticized for facing inferior talent was actually facing the guys who were willing to get in the ring with him. Louis was also cheated of many years because of the War. Louis, Dempsey and Ali were dominating stars.

The statement Jorgensoen sums up the Big 3 & who was best;

Dempsey v. Louis v. Ali: These 3 fighters are very evenly matched, as I see it, and none could have beaten either of the others every time out.

Ezzard Charles as a light heavyweight may have come close but that's another story.
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: Re: boxing  PostPosted: Aug 10, 2014 - 12:24 AM



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FrankC wrote:
Jorgensen's article is probably as accurate as you can get when rating boxers from one era to another. I think his Big 3 is hard to dispute. Dempsey, Louis and Ali took on all comers. Louis who has been criticized for facing inferior talent was actually facing the guys who were willing to get in the ring with him. Louis was also cheated of many years because of the War. Louis, Dempsey and Ali were dominating stars.

The statement Jorgensoen sums up the Big 3 & who was best;

Dempsey v. Louis v. Ali: These 3 fighters are very evenly matched, as I see it, and none could have beaten either of the others every time out.

Ezzard Charles as a light heavyweight may have come close but that's another story.


At the present time I have Ali, Dempsey, Johnson and Louis battling it out in the upper echelon of my all-time heavyweight rankings using Data Boxing. I am providing a link to my all-time rankings project below:

http://mydataboxingjournal.blogspot.com/2008/07/my-all-time-heavyweight-rankings.html

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"So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I fight to win. I'm not just shadow-boxing or playing around." (I Cor. 9:26)
 
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FrankCOffline
Post subject: rankingsJack Johnson, Harry Wills, Joe Jeanette and Peter Ja  PostPosted: Aug 10, 2014 - 07:13 AM



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Jack Johnson, Harry Wills, Peter Jackson and Joe Jeanette, Sam Crawford all had to be admired for comprting in a sport that was biased yet allowed them to compete. I wonder about their training and the availability of training sites, equipment, etc. Johnson was the only black to hold the title but I think with the proper push Harry and Sam may have won the title. I think Crawford was a light-heavy. Peter Jackson had no chance at a title because he was pre-1900's.

I enjoy reading the rankings and expect they will change. Jersey Joe has a lot of finesse and could move up a little. I can't sse Cooney staying as high as he is at present. Billy Miske could surprise.
 
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FrankCOffline
Post subject: mistake  PostPosted: Aug 10, 2014 - 08:14 AM



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I wrote Sam Crawford and it is Sam Langford. I was just reading a book on Ty Cobb and Sam Crawford's name came up a lot. At any rate it was Langford who was the in ring fighter. Lanford is listed with 167 wins in the Boxing Register. He had at least 18 fights against Wills. Wills had the best of those meetings
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: Re: rankingsJack Johnson, Harry Wills, Joe Jeanette and Pete  PostPosted: Aug 10, 2014 - 10:31 AM



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FrankC wrote:
Jack Johnson, Harry Wills, Peter Jackson and Joe Jeanette, Sam Crawford all had to be admired for comprting in a sport that was biased yet allowed them to compete. I wonder about their training and the availability of training sites, equipment, etc. Johnson was the only black to hold the title but I think with the proper push Harry and Sam may have won the title. I think Crawford was a light-heavy. Peter Jackson had no chance at a title because he was pre-1900's.

I enjoy reading the rankings and expect they will change. Jersey Joe has a lot of finesse and could move up a little. I can't sse Cooney staying as high as he is at present. Billy Miske could surprise.


Click on the link I have provided below for my latest installment of my all-time heavyweight rankings using Data Boxing PC. The top 20 remained the same, but there were several changes lower down as I decided to reevaluate Gerry Cooney using a revised career card for him (1979-1986). Cooney's previous rating of No. 21 was based on his 1982 ratings. Cooney took the biggest tumble, from No. 21 to No. 27. His place was taken at No. 21 by Vitali Klitschko. Here are my revised rankings:

http://mydataboxingjournal.blogspot.com/2014/08/my-all-time-heavyweight-rankings-revised.html

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FrankCOffline
Post subject: Heavies  PostPosted: Aug 10, 2014 - 01:47 PM



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The Klitschko's certainly earned their spots. Cooney and Quary did not the talent that Schmeling or Joe Choynski had but picked and chose fighters that were almost 'no bodies.' Joe minus his last 2 years could almost beat any fighter.

Thank You for keeping the past alive through your boxing replays. The 1st boxing match I ever heard was on the radio in 1948 when Tony Zale won the Middleweight Championship back from Rocky Graziano. We always wanted to see rocky face Jake Lamotta. I think by this time Jake would have cleaned house. I remember you staged that meetingin your replay and Jake won.

My favorite boxing movies;

1. Somebody up there Likes Me.
2. Raging Bull
3. Rocky
4. Cinderella Man
5. Dempsey
6. Champion
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: RE: Heavies  PostPosted: Aug 10, 2014 - 05:54 PM



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I'll have my eye on Cooney and Quarry to see how they match up vs the likes of Schmeling and Choynski in my continuing replays. Johnson has moved up to No. 2 and Tunney to No. 6. As Julian Compton used to say, stay tuned. Go to my website to see my latest rankings.

Thanks for the list of boxing movies. I've seen Somebody up their Likes Me, Rocky, Dempsey and Cinderella Man and they are among my favorites as well. I'll have to check out the others. Among my other favorites are The Set-up, Requiem for a Heavyweight, The Harder They Fall, Kid Galahad (with Elvis) and last but not least all the other Rocky movies.

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Post subject: All-Time HW Rankings  PostPosted: Aug 10, 2014 - 06:50 PM



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After continuing replays, Quarry took a tumble from No. 28 to No. 33. Schmeling moved past Quarry to No. 29, Walcott moved up to No. 31 and Firpo is now rated No. 32 on the list. Stay tuned.

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FrankCOffline
Post subject: rankings & movies  PostPosted: Aug 10, 2014 - 07:15 PM



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The rankings have changed. Johnson is worthy of the 2nd spot although you have the game that makes him earn it.

Three movies I forgot

1. Joe and Max (made for HBO is excellent)
2. The Fighter (Mickey Ward)
3. Monkey on My Back (Barney Ross)
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: RE: rankings & movies  PostPosted: Aug 10, 2014 - 08:31 PM



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Johnson and Dempsey is a very close match-up. In my continuing replays Dempsey will challenge Johnson for the No. 2 spot. Thanks for mentioning the movies. I plan to check those out as well.

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