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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: Data Boxing Cards  PostPosted: Oct 14, 2006 - 12:32 AM



Joined: Mar 19, 2006
Posts: 974

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DRDATABOX:

Good to hear. I'll be looking forward to the new Valuev and Klitschko cards. Thanks!
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: Norton vs Shavers  PostPosted: Oct 14, 2006 - 10:55 AM



Joined: Mar 19, 2006
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DATA BOXING 6.0 WHAT IF FIGHTS: KEN NORTON-IN-HIS-PRIME VS. EARNIE SHAVERS

Ken Norton in-his-prime and Earnie Shavers took turns winning and losing against each other in a Data Boxing computer fight series. In the 15-bout Norton-Shavers series, it was Shavers 7 wins/3KOs, Norton 6 wins/2 KOs and 2 draws. The following are the results extracted from the Data Boxing one line summary file:

P = points; J = judge cards; R = judge rounds; N = knockdowns; C = cuts; I = injury; F = fouls

Earnie Shavers !78 Ws12 Ken Norton P40+/36+ J113"/113' R6/4" N1/0 C&I3/0
Earnie Shavers !78 KO1 Ken Norton P0/1 J0/0 R0/0 N0/0 C&I0/0
Earnie Shavers !78 KO3 Ken Norton P8+/3+ J19/19 R1/1 N0/0 C&I1/0
Ken Norton Wu12 Earnie Shavers !78 P47/23+ J115"/110" R7/4' N1/1 C&I1/0
Ken Norton Ws12 Earnie Shavers !78 P42/36 J113'/111' R5"/5" N0/1 C&I2/0
Earnie Shavers !78 Wm12 Ken Norton P42/29 J114'/112" R6/4" N0/0 C&I0/1
Earnie Shavers !78 KO1 Ken Norton P2/3 J0/0 R0/0 N0/0 C&I0/0
Ken Norton Wu12 Earnie Shavers !78 P44+/32+ J115"/111 R8/4 N1/0 C&I2/0
Earnie Shavers !78 Wu12 Ken Norton P55/28+ J115"/110 R7"/3" N3/0 C&I4/1
Ken Norton KO8 Earnie Shavers !78 P38+/36+ J64/62' R4/3 N1/2 C&I2/2
Ken Norton KO4 Earnie Shavers !78 P15/11 J28'/28 R1'/1" N0/1 C&I1/0
Earnie Shavers !78 Du12 Ken Norton P31+/27 J114/114 R6/6 N0/0 C&I0/1
Earnie Shavers !78 Ws12 Ken Norton P34+/30 J113'/112" R6'/5" N1/0 C&I0/0
Ken Norton Dm12 Earnie Shavers !78 P36+/36 J113'/113 R6/6 N0/0 C&I1/0
Ken Norton Wu12 Earnie Shavers !78 P40/18 J117'/108" R9'/2" N0/0 C&I0/0

Comment: Although Shavers caught Norton (past his prime) cold in their actual fight in 1979, my analysis is that Norton in-his-prime would have been capable of beating Shavers. I think It would have been a great fight that either boxer could have won.

COMING UP NEXT: As a conclusion to this Data Boxing 6.0 project, I will conduct a Ken Norton vs. Leon Spinks match-up.


Last edited by Big_City on Aug 20, 2011 - 06:34 PM; edited 3 times in total
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: DB 6.0 Norton vs L. Spinks  PostPosted: Oct 15, 2006 - 03:21 PM



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DATA BOXING 6.0 KEN NORTON vs. LEON SPINKS

SCOUTING REPORT: In 1977 Muhammad Ali was ordered by the WBC to sign for a mandatory title defense against the winner of the Norton-Young title-eliminator bout. Norton beat Young by a split-decision over 15 rounds. The WBC allowed Ali to defend his title against Leon Spinks in a "tune-up" bout under the condition that the winner fight #1 challenger Ken Norton. Spinks became heavyweight champ with a split-decision victory over Ali. However, Spinks signed to fight Ali in a rematch instead of WBC #1 challenger Norton. Norton was then awarded the WBC Heavyweight Title-Belt when the WBC enforced the mandatory title defense rule.

Let's take a look at portions of the computer generated fight narrative. My comments are in capital letters. Please note that the following computer narrative is from the DB DETAIL FILE and it is a text file extract. The actual narrative on the DB screen display is color coded for the boxers with adjustable levels of speed and detail with a graphic display for scoring. See: http://mydataboxingjournal.blogspot.com/2008/05/data-boxing-60-fight-narratives.html

Here's the first two rounds....

[The announcer:]
Ladies and gentlemen ...
For the title of Heavyweight Champion ...
Fighting out of the 'red' corner,
weighing in at 220 pounds,
the challenger,
Ken Norton
... and his opponent, fighting out of the 'blue' corner,
weighing in at 200 pounds,
the champion,
Leon "The Latest" Spinks
in fifteen rounds of boxing.

[The broadcaster:]

~~~ FIRST ROUND ~~~
Norton with a right to the head.
Spinks with a right to the head.
Ken Norton with a left to the body.
Spinks with a left to the head.
Norton with a left to the body.
Spinks lands a left hand to Norton's head!
Spinks with a right to the head.
Spinks takes a left to the head!
Norton, a left to the head in vain.
Spinks no luck with a left to the head.
Norton waiting to counter.
Norton connects with a left and a right hand to the head and body!!
Here Norton is short with a left to the body.
Spinks with a right to the head.
Here Norton comes up short with a right to the body.
Leon Spinks with a left to the head.
Norton pounds a left-right-left-left to the head and body!!!!
Here Norton is short with a right to the head.
The bell, ending round one!
Great round for Norton.
Our analyst scored that round for Norton by 10-9.


~~~ SECOND ROUND ~~~
Norton in the northwest corner to our far left;
Spinks out of the southeast corner to our near right.
Norton connects with a left and a right to the head and body!!
Norton with a left to the head.
Spinks at the ready ...!!
Spinks with a left to the head.
Here's Norton, a right to the head for nothing.
Spinks no luck with a right to the head.
Norton with a left to the head.
Spinks missing with a left to the head.
Here Norton is short with a left to the head.
Spinks connects with a left and a right hand to the head!!
Spinks no luck with a left to the head.
Norton connects with a left and a right to the head and body!!
There's the bell, ending round two!
Edge, perhaps, to Norton.
Our analyst scored that round for Norton by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 20-18 for Norton.


LET'S LOOK AT SOME OF THE ACTION FROM THE 8TH ROUND.....

Ken Norton with a right to the body.
Spinks, a left to the head for nothing.
Norton lands a left to the head!
Norton with a right to the body.
Spinks stalking.
Spinks no luck with a right to the head.
Norton, a left to the head to no avail.
Spinks misses with a hard combination.
Spinks with a right to the head.
Ken Norton with a right to the head.
Here Spinks comes up short with a right to the head.
Spinks takes a left hand to the head!
Norton again lands a left glove to Spinks's head!
Norton moving in.
Norton missing with a right to the head.
Spinks with a left to the head.
Norton hits a left and a right to the head and body!!
Norton no luck with a right to the head.
Spinks misses with a hard left to the head.
Leon Spinks with a right to the head.
Norton countering.
Norton countering.
The bell, ending round eight!
A good round for Norton.
Our analyst scored that round for Norton by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 79-73 for Norton.
Ken Norton -- Leon Spinks
1 10-9 5 10-9
2 10-9 6 10-9
3 9-10 7 10-9
4 10-9 8 10-9

Rounds: 7 - 1 Points: 79 - 73[/b]

NORTON IS DOMINATING THE FIGHT. LET'S LOOK AT PART OF THE ACTION FROM THE 11TH ROUND....

The challenger lands a left hand to the jaw!
Norton jabs.
Here Norton comes up short with a right to the head.
Spinks no luck with a right to the head.
Norton connects with a left and a right hand to the head and body!!
Norton with a left to the body.
There's Spinks, a left to the head for nothing.
Norton with a left to the head.
Spinks no luck with a right to the head.
Norton, a left to the body for nothing.
Spinks moves in.
Spinks with a right to the head.
Strong right by Norton ...
... Spinks is down!
Spinks falls after bouncing off the ropes.
He's up at six......

NOTE: THE KNOCKDOWN COUNTS ARE NOT COMPLETED INSTANTLY AS THEY APPEAR ON THIS ON-LINE SCREEN. ON THE DATA BOXING ACTION SCREEN, THE KNOCKDOWNS ARE COUNTED DOWN ON THE SCREEN. LET'S GO TO THE END OF THE FIGHT....

The referee stops the fight!
... Spinks took too much punishment this round.
He fell again after rising.
Ken Norton TKO's Leon Spinks
... at one minute and fifty one seconds of round eleven.
A knockout is the official scoring.
Let's go to the ring announcer.
---
[The announcer:]

Ladies and gentlemen: your attention please.
The winner in round eleven by a knock-out,
and ... NEW ...
... Heavyweight Champion:
Ken Norton!

[b]DATA BOXING PC 100 BOUT FAST-MODE SERIES
- Ken Norton won a Data Boxing PC Fast-Mode Series set for 100 bouts vs. Leon Spinks. The series was terminated early due to a statistically significant result at the 5% level: Norton vs. L. Spinks 7Ws-1Ls-0Ds; 4-1Ks, 2-0Ts, 1-0Ws.

ENDNOTES: My analysis is that Ken Norton was a superior fighter to Leon Spinks and would have won the mandatory 1978 match-up with Spinks if Leon would have signed for it. It wasn’t an ideal situation when Norton was awarded the title belt when the WBC enforced the mandatory title defense rule. However, in the final analysis, Norton’s title was substantiated. Dr. Julian Compton (creator of Data Boxing) and Don Mankowski (who brought Data Boxing back in the computer version) both gave their take on this forum regarding Norton's title that I summed up as follows:

1. Dr. Compton pointed out that Norton is a “Logical Champion” in view of boxing commission rules, quality opponents and title defenses (see above post “Norton-Holmes re-lived” 9/10/06 p. 2 for the actual discussion) and;

2. Don Mankowski described how events that ocurred later helped to solidify Norton’s claim to the title (i.e. Holmes win over Ali for the linear championship linking Norton to the linear heavyweight title and Holmes' dominance bringing the WBC title into prominence - see above post “Norton‘s Claim to title” 9/11/06 p. 3 for the actual discussion).

I appreciate the above insights. They illustrate the big picture and put Norton's title-belt into proper perspective. Regarding the actuality that Norton is a "logical champion," I maintain the following:

1) The WBC had no choice in awarding the title to Norton-the rules are the rules;
2) My analysis is that Ken Norton would have defeated Leon Spinks in what should have been a mandatory title shot for Norton; and
3) Although Ali won on the judges cards, I felt Norton beat Ali in their their 3rd fight.

Imagine how the course of heavyweight history would have been changed if Leon Spinks had defended his title against # 1 challenger Ken Norton.

This concludes my Ken Norton Career Replay project. I appreciate the extensive amount of research incorporated into Data Boxing that accounts for Data Boxing's accuracy. The Data Boxing PC game is really COOL! It's great to be able to power up my computer for an endless variety of intriguing matchups between fighters of the past and/or present. Data Boxing is an exciting game that gives realistic results.

One Data Boxing result is not considered final. A series of match-ups needs to be analyzed before making a judgment. Positive and negative factors can affect a bout and these can be adjusted for in a Data Boxing simulation. The abovementioned adjustments need to be made to re-create historical fights and may also be invoked for hypothetical match-ups.

The computer narratives for this project from the DB Detail File are text file extracts. The narration on the actual DB 6.0 screen display is color-coded for the fighters with adjustable levels of detail and speed. You have the option of displaying photos of the boxers and a graphic or a scoreboard display for scoring. Also, the characters are arranged much better on the DB screen display than what you see below. You will also see literal knockdown counts on the screen display and more. There is much more to discover about Data Boxing 6.0 as you play it. You have to see it to realize what an awesome game it is. Besides being a fun game to play, Data Boxing is educational. I've learned alot about the the history of boxing by playing Data Boxing. See My Data Boxing Journal: http://mydataboxingjournal.blogspot.com/


Last edited by Big_City on Aug 20, 2011 - 06:33 PM; edited 6 times in total
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: Suppose Ken Norton had used a jab strategy vs. Gerry Cooney  PostPosted: Jan 23, 2007 - 06:51 PM



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Data Boxing 6.0

SUPPOSE KEN NORTON HAD USED THE JAB STRATEGY VS. GERRY COONEY

Besides being a fun game to play, Data Boxing is educational. I've learned alot about the the history of boxing by playing Data Boxing. The results from Data Boxing provide me with accurate information for analysis in my independent study project to determine my own all-time rankings for the greatest 50 heavyweights in boxing. I will post my rankings here at Table Top Sports when I complete the project.

I think Ken Norton is one of the greats. At the present time, I would rate Norton at or about #13 of the all time heavyweights. (This is preliminary. As I stated before, my plan is to post my all-time rankings when I finish the above-mentioned project). Norton lost to Gerry Cooney by TKO in round one back in 1981 (when Norton was well past his prime). Considering that Norton lost to Cooney by TKO in round one, it should be noted that Cooney was one of the best ever punchers in history-the #1 ranked contender going into this fight, and even some of the best have been caught cold. In a Norton-Cooney Data Boxing match-up with both in their primes, my Data Boxing results indicate that this would be a close match-up that either boxer could win. My all-time results for Cooney vs Norton (in-his-prime) from the Data Boxing PC two boxers head-to-head file are: Cooney vs. Norton 840-821; 176-167 KOs, 82-138 TKOs (most of these bouts were conducted in the fast mode).

Another hypothetical is what if Norton had elected to use a jab strategy and stayed away from Cooney in their real life bout? In the actual bout Norton erred by slugging it out with the dangerous Cooney. Simply put, anyone who gets cleanly hit to the head with a good shot by Cooney is going to be stopped. Although past his prime, Norton still had excellent physical tools and would have been very capable of using a scheme like the the jab strategy. Data Boxing encourages the player to experiment. I staged Norton versus Cooney and invoked Data Boxing's optional jab strategy for Norton. Norton was represented with his past prime ratings.

Please note that the following fight narrative is a text file extract. See:
http://mydataboxingjournal.blogspot.com/2008/05/data-boxing-60-fight-narratives.html

Let's go to the fight....

[The announcer:]
Ladies and gentlemen ...
Heavyweight boxing.
Fighting out of the 'red' corner,
weighing in at 225 pounds,
Gerry Cooney
... and his opponent, fighting out of the 'blue' corner,
weighing in at 223 pounds,
Ken Norton
in ten rounds of boxing.

[The broadcaster:]

~~~ FIRST ROUND ~~~
Cooney with a left to the head.
Norton with a right to the head.
Cooney no luck with a left to the head.
Norton with a left to the body.
Here Cooney comes up short with a left to the head.
Norton with a jab.
Norton, a left to the body in vain.
Cooney missing with a left to the head.
Norton with a right to the body.
Cooney with a left to the head.
Here Norton comes up short with a left to the body.
There's the bell, ending round one!
A close round.
Our analyst scored that round for Norton by 10-9.

~~~ SECOND ROUND ~~~
Cooney in the northwest corner to our far left;
Norton out of the southeast corner to our near right.
Cooney with a left to the head.
Norton connects with a left and a right to the head and body!!
Norton with a left to the head.
Cooney lands a left hand to Norton's head!
Gerry Cooney with a left to the head.
Norton lands a left hand to Cooney's head!
Norton again hits a left and a right to the head and body!!
The bell.
Round, perhaps, to Norton.
Our analyst scored that round for Norton by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 20-18 for Norton.

~~~ THIRD ROUND ~~~
Cooney with a left to the head.
Norton, a left to the head for nothing.
Cooney no luck with a left to the head.
Now Norton lands a left hand to Cooney's head!
Norton missing with a left to the head.
Cooney, a left to the head in vain.
Norton with a right to the head.
At the center of the ring.
Cooney with a left to the head.
Norton lands a left glove to Cooney's head!
Norton with a right to the head.
Cooney with a left to the head.
Ken Norton with a right to the body.
Cooney with a left to the head.
Norton, a left to the head for nothing.
Cooney lands a left to Norton's head!
Cooney with a left to the head.
Norton missing with a left to the body.
Cooney lands a left hand to Norton's head!
Cooney no luck with a left to the head.
Norton connects with a left and a right hand to the head and body!!
Norton with a left to the head.
Cooney, a left to the head for nothing.
Norton using the jab.
Cooney takes a left to the head!
End of round three.
Round, perhaps, to Norton.
Our analyst scored that round for Norton by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 30-27 for Norton.
Gerry Cooney -- Ken Norton
1 9-10 3 9-10
2 9-10

Rounds: 0 - 3 Points: 27 - 30

~~~ FOURTH ROUND ~~~
Cooney missing with a left to the head.
Norton with a jab.
Norton lands a left hand to Cooney's head!
Norton with a jab.
Norton no luck with a right to the head.
Cooney lands a left hand to the head!
Again Cooney makes contact with a left to Norton's head!
Norton is forced toward the center of the ring.
Cooney jabs.
Cooney no luck with a left to the head.
Norton with a left to the head.
Gerry connects with two lefts to the head!!
Cooney with a left to the head.
Round four, there's the bell.
Round, perhaps, to Cooney.
Our analyst scored that round for Cooney by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 39-37 for Norton.
Gerry Cooney -- Ken Norton
1 9-10 3 9-10
2 9-10 4 10-9

Rounds: 1 - 3 Points: 37 - 39

~~~ FIFTH ROUND ~~~
Norton to our near right; and
Cooney in the corner to our far left.
Cooney feinting.
Cooney with a left to the head.
Here Norton is short with a left to the body.
Cooney, a left to the head for nothing.
Norton, a right to the head to no avail.
Gerry Cooney no luck with a left to the head.
The bell.
A close round.
Our analyst scored that round for Cooney by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 48-47 for Norton.
Gerry Cooney -- Ken Norton
1 9-10 4 10-9
2 9-10 5 10-9
3 9-10

Rounds: 2 - 3 Points: 47 - 48

~~~ SIXTH ROUND ~~~
Here Cooney is short with a left to the head.
Action at the middle of the ring.
Norton with a left to the head.
Cooney with a left to the head.
Norton missing with a right to the head.
Cooney countering.
Cooney jabs.
Cooney crouching.
At the middle of the ring.
There's the bell, ending round six!
Edge, perhaps, to Cooney.
Our analyst scored that round for Cooney by 10-9.
He has it 57-57 overall.
Gerry Cooney -- Ken Norton
1 9-10 4 10-9
2 9-10 5 10-9
3 9-10 6 10-9

Rounds: 3 - 3 Points: 57 - 57

~~~ SEVENTH ROUND ~~~
Cooney pounds a series of lefts to the head!!!!
Cooney missing with a left to the head.
Norton lands a left glove to the cheek!
Now Norton comes up short with a left to the head.
Cooney lands a left to Norton's head!
Cooney, a left to the head to no avail.
Norton connects with a left hand and a right to the head and body!!
Ken Norton with a right to the head.
Cooney makes contact with a left hand to the head!
Cooney with a left to the head.
Cooney takes a left to the head!
Norton again connects with a left hand and a right to the head and body!!
Norton, a left to the head in vain.
Cooney pounds a series of lefts to the head!!!!
Cooney again lands a left to the head!
Cooney with a left to the head.
Ken lands a left glove to the head!
Norton missing with a left to the head.
Cooney lands a left hand to the head!
Cooney with a left to the head.
Norton, a left to the head for nothing.
Gerry Cooney with a left to the head.
Norton, a left to the body in vain.
Cooney no luck with a left to the head.
Norton missing with a left to the head.
Cooney lands a left hand to the head!

Cooney circling.
Cooney no luck with a left to the head.
There's the bell, ending round seven!
Great round for Cooney.
Our analyst scored that round for Cooney by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 67-66 for Cooney.
Gerry Cooney -- Ken Norton
1 9-10 5 10-9
2 9-10 6 10-9
3 9-10 7 10-9
4 10-9

Rounds: 4 - 3 Points: 67 - 66

~~~ EIGHTH ROUND ~~~
Cooney in the northwest corner to our far left;
Norton out of the southeast corner to our near right.
Cooney with a left to the head.
At the center of the ring.
Norton with a left to the head.
Cooney missing with a left to the head.
Norton no luck with a left to the body.
Cooney with a left to the head.
Norton lands a left glove to the head!
Norton with a left to the head.
Cooney connects with two lefts to the head!!
Cooney again lands a left to Norton's head!
Cooney yet again lands a left to the jaw!
Round eight is over!
Round, perhaps, to Cooney.
Our analyst scored that round for Cooney by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 77-75 for Cooney.
Gerry Cooney -- Ken Norton
1 9-10 5 10-9
2 9-10 6 10-9
3 9-10 7 10-9
4 10-9 8 10-9

Rounds: 5 - 3 Points: 77 - 75

~~~ NINTH ROUND ~~~
Cooney lands a left to the head!
Cooney drives Norton to the center of the ring.
Cooney with a left to the head.
Norton with a left to the head.
Cooney, a left to the head for nothing.
Norton with a jab.
Norton, a right to the body for nothing.
Gerry Cooney missing with a left to the head.
Norton lands a left hand to Cooney's head!
Again Norton lands a left to Cooney's head!
Norton with a jab.
Norton yet again makes contact with a left glove to the head!
Norton with a left to the head.
The bell, ending round nine!
Round, perhaps, to Norton.
Our analyst scored that round for Norton by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 86-85 for Cooney.
Gerry Cooney -- Ken Norton
1 9-10 6 10-9
2 9-10 7 10-9
3 9-10 8 10-9
4 10-9 9 9-10
5 10-9

Rounds: 5 - 4 Points: 86 - 85

~~~ TENTH AND FINAL ROUND ~~~
Norton takes a left to the head!
Cooney missing with a left to the head.
Cooney takes a left to the head!
Ken Norton with a right to the body.
Now Cooney is short with a left to the head.
Norton with a left to the head.
Cooney with a left to the head.
The bell, ending the bout!
A close round.
Our analyst scored that round 10-10.
For the fight, he has it 96-95 for Cooney.
Gerry Cooney -- Ken Norton
1 9-10 6 10-9
2 9-10 7 10-9
3 9-10 8 10-9
4 10-9 9 9-10
5 10-9 10 10-10

Rounds: 5 - 4 - 1 Points: 96 - 95
In a fight that went back and forth ....
Let's go to the ring announcer.
---
[The announcer:]

Ladies and gentlemen, I have the decision of the scorers.
We have a unanimous decision.
The senior judge scores it 96 points to 94.
The associate judge scores it 96 points to 95.
The referee scores it 97 points to 92.
... for the winner,
Gerry Cooney !
---
It's Cooney.

The judges' cards (10-point must) were as follow:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Points Rounds
Judge 1 (senior) = 1
*Cooney 9 9 9 10 10 10 10 10 9 10 96 5
Norton 10 10 10 9 9 9 8 9 10 10 94 4
Judge 2 (associate) = 1
*Cooney 9 9 9 10 10 10 10 10 9 10 96 5
Norton 10 10 10 9 9 9 9 9 10 10 95 4
Referee = 0
*Cooney 10 9 9 10 10 10 10 10 9 10 97 7
Norton 9 10 10 9 9 9 8 9 10 9 92 3
Unanimous decision for Gerry Cooney

Analysis: Keep in mind that one Data Boxing result is not considered final (more definitive results are obtained by conducting a series of bouts). My experiences have shown that although Cooney has the edge, the fight usually goes the distance and Norton sometimes beats Cooney with the jab strategy in Data Boxing. My analysis is that if Norton had used the jab strategy, the fight probably would have gone to a decision and Norton could have won the fight. Cooney is still the probable winner in this scenario, but Norton could win.

Note: I ran a Data Boxing 100 bout fast mode series and the jab strategy was not instigated. I had the following results:

Jab Strategy not Instigated 100 Bout Series (series terminated early due to signicant result @ 5% level):

Cooney 5 wins (3 KOs*/1 TKO), Norton 0 wins, 0 Draws

* 2 KOs in 1st round


Last edited by Big_City on Jun 30, 2013 - 10:40 AM; edited 9 times in total
 
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Post subject: Re: Suppose Ken Norton had used a jab strategy vs. Gerry Coo  PostPosted: Jan 23, 2007 - 09:42 PM



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Big_City wrote:
<clipped> Note: I ran a Data Boxing 100 bout fast mode series and the jab strategy was not instigated. I had the following results:

Jab Strategy not Instigated 100 Bout Series (series terminated early due to signicant result @ 5% level):

Cooney 5 wins (3 KOs*/1 TKO), Norton 0 wins, 0 Draws

* 2 KOs in 1st round
I guess DB is a pretty accurate game. Wink

BTW, the jab strategy is an interesting way for Norton to survive and maybe win a decision. Interesting project.
 
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Post subject: 1979 "What If" Bout: Ken Norton vs. Mike Weaver  PostPosted: Feb 21, 2007 - 09:52 PM



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DATA BOXING 6.0 1979 "What If" Bout


KEN NORTON (Past-His-Prime) vs MIKE WEAVER


Back in 1979, I remember watching the Ken Norton-Scott LeDoux fight live on TV with a couple of my old high school buddies when I was home for the summer while in college. We were all rooting for Ken Norton and we thought it was an exciting fight. Scott LeDoux was a tough customer who always fought with a lot of heart. Although Norton was past his prime, my observation was that Norton was better than LeDoux. Norton carried the fight to LeDoux until sustaining an injury when he took a thumb in the eye in the eighth round. I still have an an old International Boxing magazine article (12/79 issue) on the LeDoux-Norton fight. It details how Norton lost his normal effectiveness after taking a thumb in the eye-there was a momentum swing with Norton soon afterward becoming fatigued. The result was a draw which was the same as a defeat for Norton. I regretted reading in the newspaper a short time later that Norton retired, as I have always been a big fan of Norton.

Suppose Norton had not taken a thumb in the eye in the LeDoux bout.

"What if" Norton had not taken a thumb in the eye in his fight with LeDoux in 1979? My impression is that Norton would have beaten LeDoux. Norton then most likely would have fought USBA champion Mike Weaver (instead of LeDoux, who dropped a decision to Weaver a few months after the Norton fight.) Here is my Data Boxing "What if" result for Norton (represented with his past peak ratings) versus Weaver.

Please note that the following bout narrative is a text file extract. See: http://mydataboxingjournal.blogspot.com/2008/05/data-boxing-60-fight-narratives.html

Ladies and gentlemen ...
For the title of USBA Heavyweight Champion ...
Fighting out of the 'blue' corner,
weighing in at 223 pounds,
the former champion,
Ken Norton
... and his opponent, fighting out of the 'red' corner,
weighing in at 202 pounds,
the champion,
Mike Weaver
in twelve rounds of boxing.

[The broadcaster:]

~~~ FIRST ROUND ~~~
Norton with a right to the body.
At the center of the ring.
Watch out for Weaver ...!
Weaver connects with a left and a right to the head!!
Weaver winding up ...!!
Again Weaver connects with a left and a right to the head!!
Weaver with a left to the head.
In the Norton corner.
Ken Norton with a right to the head.
Weaver connects with a left hand and a right to the head!!
Weaver with a left to the head.
On the near side.
Now Norton, a left to the head to no avail.
Mike Weaver missing with a left to the head.
There's the bell, ending round one!
A good round for Weaver.
Our analyst scored that round for Weaver by 10-9.

~~~ SECOND ROUND ~~~
Weaver in the northwest corner to our far left;
Norton out of the southeast corner to our near right.
Weaver no luck with a left to the head.
Action at the center of the ring.
Norton with a right to the head.
Weaver with a left to the head.
Here Norton is short with a left to the body.
Now Weaver is short with a right to the head.
Ken Norton with a left to the head.
Weaver, a left to the head in vain.
The bell, ending round two!
A close round.
Our analyst scored that round 10-10.
For the fight, he has it 20-19 for Weaver.

~~~ THIRD ROUND ~~~
Weaver with a left to the head.
Here Norton comes up short with a left to the head.
Weaver, a right to the head for nothing.
Norton with a left to the head.
Weaver with a left to the head.
Norton waits to counter.
Norton with a left to the head.
Weaver with a left to the head.
We are one minute into the round.
Norton connects with a left hand and a right to the head and body!!
Norton with a right to the head.
Here Weaver comes up short with a right to the head.
On the east side.
Ken Norton with a right to the head.
Here Mike Weaver comes up short with a left to the head.
Norton with a right to the head.
On the east side.
Weaver connects with a left and a right hand to the head!!
Weaver with a left to the head.
One minute left in the round.
Norton no luck with a right to the body.
In the northeast corner.
Weaver, a left to the head for nothing.
Ken Norton no luck with a right to the head.
Weaver with a right to the head.
In the far corner.
Here Norton is short with a right to the body.
Weaver with a left to the head.
Here's Ken Norton, a right to the head to no avail.
In the far corner of the ring.
There's the bell, ending round three!
A close round.
Our analyst scored that round for Norton by 10-9.
He has it 29-29 overall.
Mike Weaver -- Ken Norton
1 10-9 3 9-10
2 10-10

Rounds: 1 - 1 - 1 Points: 29 - 29

~~~ FOURTH ROUND ~~~
Mike Weaver with a left to the head.
At the center of the ring.
Ken Norton with a right to the body.
Weaver missing with a right to the head.
Ken Norton with a right to the head.
Weaver with a left to the head.
Norton with a left to the head.
Weaver with a left to the head.
Ken Norton no luck with a left to the head.
Weaver with a left to the head.
Norton, a left to the body to no avail.
Norton takes a left hand to the head!
Weaver with a left to the head.
There's the bell, ending round four!
A close round.
Our analyst scored that round for Weaver by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 39-38 for Weaver.
Mike Weaver -- Ken Norton
1 10-9 3 9-10
2 10-10 4 10-9

Rounds: 2 - 1 - 1 Points: 39 - 38

~~~ FIFTH ROUND ~~~
Norton to our near right; and
Weaver in the corner to our far left.
A punishing right by Weaver.
Norton has been injured.
Norton has a nose bleed.
Weaver pounds a barrage of lefts and rights to the head!!!!
Weaver drives Norton toward the right side of the ring.
Weaver with a left to the head.
Norton with a left to the body.
Weaver, a right to the head for nothing.
On the right side.
Norton with a left to the body.
Weaver, a right to the head in vain.
There's the bell, ending round five!
Round, perhaps, to Weaver.
Our analyst scored that round for Weaver by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 49-47 for Weaver.
Mike Weaver -- Ken Norton
1 10-9 4 10-9
2 10-10 5 10-9
3 9-10

Rounds: 3 - 1 - 1 Points: 49 - 47

~~~ SIXTH ROUND ~~~
Heavy left to the body by Weaver...
... a standing eight-count for Norton.
Weaver hurt him with a left hand!
Weaver forces his opponent to the southeast corner.
Weaver missing with a right to the head.
Norton with a left to the head.
Here's Weaver, a right to the head to no avail.
In the Norton corner.
Norton no luck with a left to the body.
Mike Weaver no luck with a left to the head.
Ken Norton with a right to the head.
In the Norton corner.
Weaver waits to counter.
There's the bell, ending round six!
Great round for Weaver.
Our analyst scored that round for Weaver by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 59-56 for Weaver.
Mike Weaver -- Ken Norton
1 10-9 4 10-9
2 10-10 5 10-9
3 9-10 6 10-9

Rounds: 4 - 1 - 1 Points: 59 - 56

~~~ SEVENTH ROUND ~~~
Norton has suffered the following injuries:
a nose bleed.
Weaver, a right to the head for nothing.
Norton, a left to the head to no avail.
Ken Norton takes a left hand to the head!
Weaver trying a jab.
Weaver missing with a left to the head.
Action at the center of the ring.
Norton with a right to the body.
Weaver connects with a left and a right to the head!!
Weaver with a left to the head.
On the near side.
Norton missing with a left to the body.
Weaver with a right to the head.
Norton jabs.
Here Norton comes up short with a left to the head.
On the near side.
We are one minute into the round.
Weaver no luck with a right to the head.
Norton with a left to the head.
There's Weaver missing with a right to the head.
Action on the near side.
Norton no luck with a right to the body.
Mike Weaver with a left to the head.
Ken Norton with a left to the body.
On the south side.
Weaver with a left to the head.
Ken Norton with a left to the head.
Weaver lands a left hand to the head!
Norton is driven toward the near corner.
Mike Weaver with a left to the head.
One minute left in the round.
Norton hits a left and a right to the head and body!!
Ken Norton with a right to the head.
Action in the near corner of the ring.
Mike Weaver with a left to the head.
Norton lands a left to the head!
Norton, a left to the head for nothing.
Action in the near corner.
Weaver with a left to the head.
Norton, a right to the head for nothing.
Weaver with a right to the head.
In the near corner.
Time called for round seven.
A close round.
Our analyst scored that round for Weaver by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 69-65 for Weaver.
Mike Weaver -- Ken Norton
1 10-9 5 10-9
2 10-10 6 10-9
3 9-10 7 10-9
4 10-9

Rounds: 5 - 1 - 1 Points: 69 - 65

~~~ EIGHTH ROUND ~~~
Weaver in the northwest corner to our far left;
Norton out of the southeast corner to our near right.
Norton with a right to the head.
At the center of the ring.
Weaver with a right to the head.
Norton, a right to the body for nothing.
Here Weaver comes up short with a left to the head.
Norton no luck with a right to the body.
Weaver, a left to the head to no avail.
Norton lands a left glove to Weaver's ear!
Weaver is forced to the center of the ring.
Here Norton is short with a left to the head.
Weaver with a left to the head.
Norton connects with a left and a right hand to the head and body!!
Weaver driven toward the far side of the ring.
There's the bell, ending round eight!
Round, perhaps, to Norton.
Our analyst scored that round for Norton by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 78-75 for Weaver.
Mike Weaver -- Ken Norton
1 10-9 5 10-9
2 10-10 6 10-9
3 9-10 7 10-9
4 10-9 8 9-10

Rounds: 5 - 2 - 1 Points: 78 - 75

~~~ NINTH ROUND ~~~
Norton jabs.
Norton missing with a left to the body.
Weaver missing with a left to the head.
Norton missing with a left to the body.
Heavy right to the head by Weaver...
... a standing eight-count for Norton.
Weaver hurt him with a left!
The champion again lands a left to the head!
We are one minute into the round.
Weaver, a left to the head in vain.
On the near side.
Norton missing with a left to the body.
Weaver trying a jab.
Weaver connects with a left and a right hand to the head!!
We have Weaver missing with a right to the head.
Action in the near corner.
One minute left in the round.
Ken lands a left glove to Weaver's nose!
Ken Norton, a right to the head for nothing.
Weaver with a left to the head.
In the southwest corner.
There's the bell, ending round nine!
Great round for Weaver.
Our analyst scored that round for Weaver by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 88-84 for Weaver.
Mike Weaver -- Ken Norton
1 10-9 6 10-9
2 10-10 7 10-9
3 9-10 8 9-10
4 10-9 9 10-9
5 10-9

Rounds: 6 - 2 - 1 Points: 88 - 84

~~~ TENTH ROUND ~~~
Norton has suffered the following injuries:
a nose bleed.
Norton appears to be fatigued.
Norton with a left to the head.
Weaver winding up ...!!
Weaver with a left to the head.
Norton with a left to the head.
Weaver with a right to the head.
Norton no luck with a left to the head.
Weaver with a right to the head.
Norton with a right to the head.
There's the bell, ending round ten!
A close round.
Our analyst scored that round 10-10.
For the fight, he has it 98-94 for Weaver.
Mike Weaver -- Ken Norton
1 10-9 6 10-9
2 10-10 7 10-9
3 9-10 8 9-10
4 10-9 9 10-9
5 10-9 10 10-10

Rounds: 6 - 2 - 2 Points: 98 - 94

~~~ ELEVENTH ROUND ~~~
Norton to our near right; and
Weaver in the corner to our far left.
Norton with a right to the head.
Weaver with a left to the head.
Norton missing with a left to the head.
Weaver with a left to the head.
Norton with a right to the body.
Mike Weaver no luck with a left to the head.
Norton, a right to the head for nothing.
At the center of the ring.
Mike Weaver with a left to the head.
We are one minute into the round.
Norton with a left to the head.
Mike Weaver with a right to the head.
Norton missing with a left to the head.
Weaver, a left to the head to no avail.
Norton with a right to the body.
Here Weaver comes up short with a right to the head.
Norton connects with a left and a right hand to the head and body!!
One minute left in the round.
Ken Norton with a right to the body.
Action on the right side of the ring.
Mike Weaver with a left to the head.
Here Norton is short with a right to the body.
Here Mike Weaver is short with a left to the head.
Action on the right side.
Ken Norton with a left to the body.
There's the bell, ending round eleven!
Edge, perhaps, to Norton.
Our analyst scored that round for Norton by 10-9.
For the fight, he has it 107-104 for Weaver.
Mike Weaver -- Ken Norton
1 10-9 7 10-9
2 10-10 8 9-10
3 9-10 9 10-9
4 10-9 10 10-10
5 10-9 11 9-10
6 10-9

Rounds: 6 - 3 - 2 Points: 107 - 104

~~~ TWELFTH AND FINAL ROUND ~~~
Norton has suffered the following injuries:
a nose bleed.
Norton appears to be fatigued.
Norton lands a left glove to Weaver's head!
Norton again lands a left to the mouth!
Norton, a left to the body for nothing.
Weaver missing with a right to the head.
On the west side of the ring.
Norton with a left to the body.
Weaver missing with a left to the head.
Hammering right by Norton ...
Down goes Weaver!
Weaver slumps.
It's over!
Mike Weaver knocked out by Ken Norton
... at 2:52 of Round 12
Let's go to the ring announcer.
---
[The announcer:]

Ladies and gentlemen: your attention please.
The winner in round twelve by a knock-out,
and ... ONCE AGAIN ...
... USBA Heavyweight Champion:
Ken Norton!

The winner by a knockout ( 12R/ 2:52): Ken Norton.


Analysis: Although a single Data Boxing bout result is not definitive, the above result indicates that Norton was still dangerous when he was past his prime and would have had a puncher's chance against Weaver. I had Weaver winning a DB 100 bout fast mode series 65-25-10Ds, 5-6KOs, 13-0TKOs. Therefore, Weaver is the probable winner had he fought Norton in 1979, but Norton always had a puncher's chance with his vaunted overhand right.


Last edited by Big_City on Aug 10, 2008 - 03:58 PM; edited 2 times in total
 
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anothersiteOffline
Post subject: Re: 1979 Hypothetical Bout: Ken Norton vs. Mike Weaver  PostPosted: Feb 22, 2007 - 06:22 PM



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Big_City wrote:
I had Weaver winning a DB 100 bout fast mode series 65-25-10Ds, 5-6KOs, 13-0TKOs. Therefore, Weaver is the probable winner had he fought Norton in 1979, but Norton always had a puncher's chance with his vaunted overhand right.
That certainly is a lot of draws without many KOs or TKOs either. I find the results interesting since Weaver beat John Tate by 15th round knockout and Norton was a bit of a puncher himself.
 
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Post subject: Re: 1979 Hypothetical Bout: Ken Norton vs. Mike Weaver  PostPosted: Feb 22, 2007 - 09:41 PM



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anothersite wrote:
Big_City wrote:
I had Weaver winning a DB 100 bout fast mode series 65-25-10Ds, 5-6KOs, 13-0TKOs. Therefore, Weaver is the probable winner had he fought Norton in 1979, but Norton always had a puncher's chance with his vaunted overhand right.
That certainly is a lot of draws without many KOs or TKOs either. I find the results interesting since Weaver beat John Tate by 15th round knockout and Norton was a bit of a puncher himself.


I remember watching the 1980 Weaver-Tate bout on TV. Weaver really shocked Tate with that knockout punch! Coincidentally, the sudden KO in the last minute of Weaver-Tate paralled the DB Norton-Weaver hypothetical bout that I posted.

P.S. Incidentally, Ken Norton dubbed Weaver with the nickname "Hercules."

P.P.S. Keep in mind that one Data Boxing result and/or series is not considered definitive. An array of match-ups and/or several sets of bouts is needed before making a judgment.


Last edited by Big_City on Aug 10, 2008 - 03:33 PM; edited 3 times in total
 
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Post subject: Re: 1979 Hypothetical Bout: Ken Norton vs. Mike Weaver  PostPosted: Feb 23, 2007 - 10:08 PM



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anothersite wrote:
Big_City wrote:
I had Weaver winning a DB 100 bout fast mode series 65-25-10Ds, 5-6KOs, 13-0TKOs. Therefore, Weaver is the probable winner had he fought Norton in 1979, but Norton always had a puncher's chance with his vaunted overhand right.
That certainly is a lot of draws without many KOs or TKOs either. I find the results interesting since Weaver beat John Tate by 15th round knockout and Norton was a bit of a puncher himself.


Data Boxing 6.0

Norton-Weaver 1979 Hypothetical Bout

I ran the Norton (past peak) versus Weaver Data Boxing 100 bout series again and had the following results:

Weaver-Norton (past peak) 66Ws-30Ls-4Ds; 10-4KOs, 16-0TKOs

Norton’s winning percentage was slighter higher but Weaver still had the edge (Weaver’s KO/TKO percentage was also higher than the first series). At appears that Norton would have had a realistic possibility of winning the fight, though Weaver is the probable winner.
 
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Post subject: Ken Norton (past-his-prime) vs. Big John Tate  PostPosted: Feb 24, 2007 - 11:01 AM



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Data Boxing 6.0

“What if” Bout

Ken Norton (past peak) vs. Big John Tate

Ken Norton (past-his-prime) showed he had a realistic possibility of winning the USBA title in a hypothetical 1979 match-up with Mike Weaver. The most recent hypothetical I played out in the virtual world of Data Boxing was a Norton-Tate “what if” 1980 WBA title fight (Weaver kayoed Tate to win the title in 1980). Incidentally, Norton discussed in his book Going the Distance that he received an offer to come out of retirement to fight Tate, but Norton decided to stay out of boxing.

The DBLINE file reports…

Ken Norton Wm15 John Tate P40.5/29 J144/141 144/143 142/142 R7/6 7/6 7/8 N0/0 C0/1 I1/1 F0/0

Here is the announcement from the DBDETAIL File (fight narrative excerpt)…
[The announcer:]

Ladies and gentlemen, I have the decision of the scorers.
The referee scores it 142 points to 142 ... even!
We have a majority decision.
The associate judge scores it 144 points to 143.
The senior judge scores it 144 points to 141.
... for the winner, and ...
... ONCE AGAIN ...
... Heavyweight Champion:
Ken Norton!
---
It's Norton.

Comment:

Although Norton won the foregoing match-up, Tate won a 100 bout series that was terminated early due to significant results at the 5% level:

Tate-Norton 13Ws-5Ls; 3-4KOs, 3-0TKOs

Though past his prime, if Norton had fought Tate for the WBA title in 1980, the former world champion still had the edge of a “puncher’s chance” to have once again been heavyweight champion. However, the series of bouts indicates that Tate probably would have won the fight.

COMING UP NEXT: Ken Norton (in-his-prime) vs. Big John Tate
 
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Post subject: Ken Norton (in-his-prime) vs. Big John Tate  PostPosted: Feb 24, 2007 - 03:09 PM



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Data Boxing 6.0

Ken Norton (in-his-prime) vs. Big John Tate

What if Big John Tate had found himself face to face in a match with Ken Norton in his prime? Moreover, what if Norton had faced Big John Tate instead of Holmes for his first title defense? In 1978 Ken Norton’s first opponent in defending the HW title was unbeaten Larry Holmes. Norton lost a split-decision to Holmes in one of the best heavyweight title fights in history. I played out the above-mentioned hypothetical in Data Boxing, a boxing simulation represented by years of research by university professor Dr. Julian Compton, and implemented in the computer version by NASA programmer, Don Mankowski.

The DBLINE file reports…

Ken Norton KO13 John Tate P48.5/36.5 J114/109 116/112 116/108 R8/4 8/4 8/4 N1/0 C1/0 I0/0 F0/0

Here is the announcement from the DBDETAIL File (text file fight narrative excerpt)…

Ken Norton knocks out John Tate
... at 2:13 of Round 13
Let's go to the ring announcer.
---
[The announcer:]

Ladies and gentlemen: your attention please.
The winner in round thirteen by a knock-out,
and ... STILL ...
... WBC Heavyweight Champion:
Ken Norton!

ENDNOTE: In a 100 bout fast mode series, Norton (in-his-prime) dominated Tate. Here are the results:

Norton-Tate 80Ws-17Ls-3Ds; 37-7KOs, 0-3TKOs

COMING UP NEXT: Ken Norton (past-his-prime) vs. Gerrie Coetzee early 80s hypothetical bout.


Last edited by Big_City on Mar 04, 2007 - 08:09 PM; edited 2 times in total
 
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Post subject: Re: Ken Norton (in-his-prime) vs. Big John Tate  PostPosted: Feb 24, 2007 - 03:16 PM



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Big_City wrote:
<clipped>ENDNOTE: In a 100 bout fast mode series, Norton (in-his-prime) dominated Tate. Here are the results:

Norton-Weaver 80Ws-17Ls-3Ds; 37-7KOs, 0-3TKOs
<clipped>
Weaver? Should the name be Tate, instead? Or was Weaver actually used for this series? Confused
 
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Post subject: Re: Ken Norton (in-his-prime) vs. Big John Tate (correction)  PostPosted: Feb 24, 2007 - 03:31 PM



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anothersite wrote:
Big_City wrote:
<clipped>ENDNOTE: In a 100 bout fast mode series, Norton (in-his-prime) dominated Tate. Here are the results:

Norton-Weaver 80Ws-17Ls-3Ds; 37-7KOs, 0-3TKOs
<clipped>
Weaver? Should the name be Tate, instead? Or was Weaver actually used for this series? Confused


You are correct. The name should have been Tate and I have edited the mistake. Thanks.
 
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Post subject: Re: Ken Norton (in-his-prime) vs. Big John Tate (correction)  PostPosted: Feb 24, 2007 - 06:48 PM



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Big_City wrote:
You are correct. The name should have been Tate and I have edited the mistake. Thanks.
You're welcome. Smile
 
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Post subject: Ken Norton vs. Gerrie Coetzee  PostPosted: Feb 24, 2007 - 08:38 PM



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Data Boxing 6.0

Early 80s “What-if” Bout: Norton vs. Coetzee


My next stop in the virtual world of Data Boxing is the heavyweight division in the early 80s, when Ken Norton made a comeback well past his prime. What if Ken Norton had fought Gerrie Coetzee in the early 80s for the WBA title? Here is a hypothetical boxing match between Coetzee and Norton in Data Boxing, the creation of Dr. Julian Compton, a game that simulates everything in boxing brought back in the computer version by Don Mankowski. Gerrie Coetzee was represented with his 1982 ratings and Norton was represented with his past prime ratings. Here is the announcement from the DBDETAIL File (excerpt of actual fight narrative from text file extract)...

Let's go to the ring announcer.
---
[The announcer:]

Ladies and gentlemen, I have the decision of the scorers.
We have a unanimous decision.
The senior judge scores it 144 points to 142.
The associate judge scores it 145 points to 142.
The referee scores it 147 points to 135.
... for the winner, and ...
new
... WBA Heavyweight Champion:
Gerrie Coetzee !
---
It's Coetzee.

The DBLINE file reported…

Gerrie Coetzee !82 Wu15 Ken Norton P48.5/32.5 J144/142 145/142 147/135 R7/5 7/5 12/3 N1/0 C0/0 I0/0 F0/0

ENDNOTE: Coetzee beat Norton in a 100 bout fast mode series that was terminated early due to significant result at the 5% level. Here are the results:

Coetzee-Norton 10Ws-3Ls; 3-1KOs, 1-0TKOs

COMING UP NEXT: Ken Norton (in-his-prime) vs. Gerrie Coetzee hypothetical bout.
 
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