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bcannon4Offline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 20, 2007 - 01:09 PM



Joined: Apr 20, 2005
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Tunney was a great fighter and the old timers who saw him fight thought very highly of him. However he just didn't have the longevity at heavyweight that many of the other great champs had.
 
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anothersiteOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 20, 2007 - 04:10 PM



Joined: May 07, 2006
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Ah longevity. Team sports typically have seasons that are a natural unit for ratings. (Team dynasty and player career ratings are an issue for another discussion.) That seems to always be the hardest issue to deal with in individual sports (the "season"), but at least golf and tennis have "Majors" to define yearly seasons. Boxing has ...

Boxing has confusion. I have always wondered how the rater decides whether a particular fight was the last one at peak or the first one past peak. Or can peak and past peak alternate/overlap for a while? Max Baer? Could a fighter have a "one" fight peak? (Name your big underdog winning challenger for a title.)

Coming back to Tunney. He used to be rated a "great" DB fighter. He would probably have rated about No. 5 or 6 all time heavyweight. In a single elimination tournament for all comers, he might win one occasionally. With his current heavyweight rating, he is probably still solidly in the top 10, but there is now a big gap between Tunney and Ali, Louis, Dempsey and too some extent Johnson. Tunney is unlikely to win an all comers tournament now unless the tourament was one of many tournaments run. I am curious what new data caused his down rating in DB. I am also curious why Dempsey has not been similarly down rated, since he did not fight many true heavyweights while champion, which is much of his peak rated time.

Anyways, thanks for the input.

PS I think Tunney was a great fighter.
 
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bcannon4Offline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 20, 2007 - 05:23 PM



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I think there are a couple of reasons why Dempsey’s stock has not fallen and Tunney’s (heavyweight) reputation has. For starters Dempsey fought his entire career as a heavyweight; Tunney fought the better part of his career as a light-heavy.

Dempsey cleaned out the division, the bulk of Tunney’s two year heavyweight tenure was two wins over a past prime ring rusty Dempsey and a win over the overmatched Heeney. Dempsey was champion for seven years and although he wasn’t exactly the busiest champion what pre Louis heavyweight champion was (excluding Burns).

I think that if Tunney had just hung around a little bit longer and fought (and defeated) a few more quality heavyweights like Jack Sharkey and Max Schmeling that his heavyweight reputation would not have diminished quite as much as it appears to have in recent years.
 
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anothersiteOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 20, 2007 - 06:58 PM



Joined: May 07, 2006
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Everything that you write makes sense, however I am still puzzled by Demspey.

From Internet sources, Dempsey Title Defenses:
•Billy Miske began his career as a middleweight. He competed successfully as a light heavyweight and heavyweight, which means that he was probably not a "real" heavyweight.
•Bill Brennan was a real heavyweight.
•Georges Carpentier fought in every division from welterweight upwards. He was light heavyweight champion of the world. He was more a light heavyweight than a heavyweight.
•Tommy Gibbons started boxing professionally as a welterweight. He was also more a light heavyweight than a heavyweight.
•Luis Angel Firpo was a real heavyweight.
•Tunney was more a light heavyweight, as we have agreed.

So, I guess Dempsey cleaned out the division before he became champ, kinda like Liston did. Otherwise, I don't see a very impressive list of heavyweight championship wins.

Anyways, thanks for the polite dialog.
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: U.S. Navy Day Heavyweight Tournament  PostPosted: Oct 13, 2007 - 11:00 AM



Joined: Mar 19, 2006
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U.S. Navy Boxers Heavyweight Tournament

Duane Bobick Wins U.S. Navy Day Tourney

In celebration of U.S. Navy Day, I staged a U.S. Navy Day heavyweight tournament in the virtual world of Data Boxing. Three computer-simulated fights over 15 rounds were staged between boxers who served in the Navy. The tournament included former heavyweight champ Jack Sharkey (career 1924-36), Freddie Beshore (who lost a title bout to Ezzard Charles by TKO in the 14th in 1950), Gunboat Smith (career 1906-21) and Duane Bobick (contender in the 1970s). Bobick, Beshore, Sharkey and Smith were all in the Navy boxing program. In the first round Bobick stopped Smith in the 9th and Sharkey kayoed Beshore in the 13th. In the final, Bobick kayoed Sharkey at 2:31 of the 10th (Bobick was behind on the judges’ scorecards going into the 10th round). Here are the stats from the first round reported by the DBLINE file….

P = points; J = judge cards; R = rounds; N = knockdowns; C&I = cut&injury+ = 1/2; ' = 1/3; " = 2/3

Duane Bobick !78 TKO(3kd)9 Gunboat Smith P36+/21 J76'/75" R4'/3 N3/0 C&I1/0

Jack Sharkey KO13 Fred Beshore P42+/23 J117/110 R9/3 N0/0 C&I1/0

Let’s take a look at a few excerpts of the computer-simulated fight narrative of the championship bout….

[The announcer:]
Ladies and gentlemen ...
For the title of Navy Day Heavyweight Champion ...
Fighting out of the 'red' corner,
weighing in at 205 pounds,
"The Boston Gob," Jack Sharkey
... and his opponent, fighting out of the 'blue' corner,
weighing in at 215 pounds,
Duane Bobick
in fifteen rounds of boxing.

[The broadcaster:]

~~~ FIRST ROUND ~~~
Here Bobick comes up short with a left to the head.
Sharkey missing with a left to the head.
Bobick with a right to the body.
Sharkey with a left to the head.
Bobick with a left to the body.
Jack Sharkey with a right to the body.
Bobick, a right to the body for nothing.
Sharkey with a right to the body.
We are one minute into the round.
Sharkey takes a left hand to the head!
Bobick with a right to the body.
On the far side.
Sharkey connects with a left and a right hand to the head and body!!
Sharkey with a right to the head.
Bobick with a left to the head.
On the far side.
Sharkey missing with a right to the head.
Bobick no luck with a left to the body.
One minute left in the round.
Bobick takes a left to the head!
Sharkey again lands a left hand to Bobick's head!
Sharkey no luck with a left to the body.
Duane Bobick with a right to the body.
Sharkey connects with a left and a right hand to the head and body!!
Time called for round one.
A good round for Sharkey.
Our analyst scored that round for Sharkey by 10-9.

~~~ TENTH ROUND ~~~
Bobick with a punishing left.
Sharkey appears to be injured.
Sharkey has a mouth cut.
Bobick pounds a series of lefts and rights to the head and body!!!!
Sharkey is driven to the north side of the ring.
Here Bobick comes up short with a right to the head.
Sharkey with a right to the head.
Bobick connects with a left hand and a right to the head and body!!
Bobick drives his opponent to the far side.
Here Bobick is short with a right to the body.
Now Jack Sharkey, a right to the body in vain.
Bobick with a right to the body.
Action on the far side.
Sharkey with a left to the head.
Thundering left by Bobick ...
... Sharkey is down!
Sharkey crumbled in the corner.
It's over!
Duane Bobick knocks out Jack Sharkey
... at 2:31 of Round 10
Let's go to the ring announcer.
---
[The announcer:]

Ladies and gentlemen: your attention please.
The winner in round ten by a knock-out,
and new
... Navy Day Heavyweight Champion:
Duane Bobick !


For a synopsis of the bout, the DBLINE file reports…

P = points; J = judge cards; R = rounds; N = knockdowns; C&I = cut&injury+ = 1/2; ' = 1/3; " = 2/3

Duane Bobick !78 KO10 Jack Sharkey P27+/23+ J85/86 R3"/4" N0/0 C&I1/0

P.S. Speaking of Duane Bobick, I ran across an interesting article about Duane Bobick that discusses how Bobick would do if he were fighting in today's heavyweight fight arena. I plan to play out this hypothetical in Data Boxing in the future and report my results. Here is a link to the webpage at KO Corner which contains the abovementioned article entitled Did Duane Get A Fair Shake?

http://www.kocorner.com/boxing/category/Duane-Bobick/

P.P.S. The narratives that I have posted on this forum are text file extracts. The read-out on the actual Data Boxing 6.0 screen display is color-coded for the fighters and there is a graphic and scoreboard representation for scoring. I am providing a link to some screenshots of Data Boxing…

http://www.tabletop-sports.com/images/DataBoxingJune.jpg
http://www.tabletop-sports.com/images/DB1.jpg
http://www.tabletop-sports.com/images/DB2.jpg

_________________
"So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I fight to win. I'm not just shadow-boxing or playing around." (I Cor. 9:26)
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 21, 2008 - 12:42 AM



Joined: Mar 19, 2006
Posts: 974

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bcannon4 wrote:
Tunney was a great fighter and the old timers who saw him fight thought very highly of him. However he just didn't have the longevity at heavyweight that many of the other great champs had.


As I've mentioned in a previous post, I am staging bouts using Data Boxing 6.0 to determine my own all time rankings for the heavyweight division. At the present time, I rank Tunney #6 in my all time heavyweights rankings. This is subject to change based on future Data Boxing replays.

_________________
"So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I fight to win. I'm not just shadow-boxing or playing around." (I Cor. 9:26)
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: Re: President's Day Weekend Data Boxing HW Tournaments  PostPosted: Feb 19, 2012 - 05:48 PM



Joined: Mar 19, 2006
Posts: 974

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Big_City wrote:
Data Boxing 6.0

President's Day Weekend HW Tournaments

February is president's month and today I salute our presidents. We also celebrate President's Day tomorrow (another reason for a three day weekend). The presidents and the heavyweight kings both have a line of succession in which they succeed one another. (Of course our presidents, unlike the heavyweight kings in today's fight arena, have undisputed reigns). American heavyweight champs are represented in the dimension of boxing called Data Boxing. I held ten 35 man Data Boxing computer-simulated heavyweight boxing tournaments. 350 computer fights in the special mode were staged. Ali held the edge over Joe Louis (Ali won five tournaments and Louis won three). Jack Dempsey and Joe Frazier were the other tourney winners. Dempsey advanced to the finals three times. Jack Johnson and George Foreman made it to the finals twice. Rocky Marciano, Larry Holmes, Jim Corbett and Mike Tyson all advanced to the finals once. All boxers were represented with their prime ratings.

The DB SUMMARY file reports (semifinals & finals excerpts)….

Tournament # 1

Semifinals


Muhammad Ali W TKO 15 Lennox Lewis

Jack Dempsey W KO 6 George Foreman

Final

Muhammad Ali W TKO 8 Jack Dempsey

Tournament # 2

Semifinals

Mike Tyson W KO 15 Jim Jeffries

Jack Dempsey W u 15 Jack Johnson

Final

Jack Dempsey W u 15 Mike Tyson

Tournament # 3

Semifinals

Joe Louis W TKO 15 Buster Douglas

George Foreman W TKO 2 Ken Norton

Final

Joe Louis W KO 2 George Foreman

Tournament # 4

Semifinals

Larry Holmes W u 15 Mike Tyson

Joe Frazier W u 15 Ken Norton

Final

Joe Frazier W u 15 Larry Holmes

Tournament # 5

Semifinals

Muhammad Ali W u 15 Joe Louis

Jack Johnson W m 15 Jack Dempsey

Final

Muhammad Ali W u 15 Jack Johnson

Tournament # 6

Semifinals

Muhammad Ali W KO 5 Joe Louis

Jim Corbett W u 15 Jack Dempsey

Final

Muhammad Ali W KO 12 Jim Corbett

Tournament # 7

Semifinals

Muhammad Ali W KO 12 Joe Louis

Jack Johnson W u 15 Jack Dempsey

Final

Muhammad Ali W u 15 Jack Johnson

Tournament # 8

Semifinals

Muhammad Ali W u 15 Lennox Lewis

Jack Dempsey W KO 11 Jack Johnson

Final

Muhammad Ali W KO 11 Jack Dempsey

Tournament # 9

Semifinals

Joe Louis W KO 3 Muhammad Ali

George Foreman W TKO 6 Rocky Marciano

Final

Joe Louis W TKO 4 George Foreman

Tournament # 10

Semifinals

Joe Louis W KO 6 Gene Tunney

Rocky Marciano W u 15 Jack Johnson

Final

Joe Louis W u 15 Rocky Marciano

Endnotes: American championship boxers who won the foregoing tournaments fought in their prime during the following presidential eras. 1) Ali during the John F. Kennedy & Lyndon B. Johnson eras; 2) Louis during the Franklin D. Roosevelt era; 3) Dempsey during the Woodrow Wilson and Warren Harding eras; and 4) Frazier during the Richard M. Nixon & Johnson eras.

Different seeds will surely produce varying results. Moreover, when a single elimination format is utilized, it may sporadically result in a fluke win or upset (just as in real-life boxing). One tournament series is not definitive. Multiple sets of tournaments and/or bouts between individual boxers are needed before making a judgment.


Theodore Roosevelt Boxed As A College Student, Governor and President

Theodore Roosevelt took up competitive boxing as a student at Harvard. He also boxed with sparring partners as Governor of New York and as President.

_________________
"So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I fight to win. I'm not just shadow-boxing or playing around." (I Cor. 9:26)
 
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professordpOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 19, 2012 - 10:03 PM



Joined: Mar 14, 2011
Posts: 125

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Great tournament and a very creative theme...fun to read through. And I'm certain it was a fun sim to run!
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: Presidents' Day Computer HW Tournament  PostPosted: Feb 19, 2012 - 11:25 PM



Joined: Mar 19, 2006
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Quote:

I'm certain it was a fun sim to run!


Absolutely. Very Happy

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"So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I fight to win. I'm not just shadow-boxing or playing around." (I Cor. 9:26)
 
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professordpOffline
Post subject: Data Boxing and Title Bout  PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 11:17 PM



Joined: Mar 14, 2011
Posts: 125

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I was just curious...nothing more. What are your views on Title Bout Championship Boxing (pc version).

Trust me, I'm not baiting you. Smile

I have my own thoughts about both games and would like to get a perspective from another person who enjoys boxing sims.
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: Computer Boxing Games  PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 09:16 PM



Joined: Mar 19, 2006
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I have the computer versions of Title Bout and Legends of Boxing and I have enjoyed playing both of them. But of all the games I have ever played, Data Boxing remains my favorite game of all time. Legends of Boxing and Title Bout are fine games though.

_________________
"So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I fight to win. I'm not just shadow-boxing or playing around." (I Cor. 9:26)
 
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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: Re: President's Day Weekend Data Boxing HW Tournaments  PostPosted: Mar 05, 2012 - 07:42 PM



Joined: Mar 19, 2006
Posts: 974

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Big_City wrote:
Big_City wrote:
Data Boxing 6.0

President's Day Weekend HW Tournaments

February is president's month and today I salute our presidents. We also celebrate President's Day tomorrow (another reason for a three day weekend). The presidents and the heavyweight kings both have a line of succession in which they succeed one another. (Of course our presidents, unlike the heavyweight kings in today's fight arena, have undisputed reigns). American heavyweight champs are represented in the dimension of boxing called Data Boxing. I held ten 35 man Data Boxing computer-simulated heavyweight boxing tournaments. 350 computer fights in the special mode were staged. Ali held the edge over Joe Louis (Ali won five tournaments and Louis won three). Jack Dempsey and Joe Frazier were the other tourney winners. Dempsey advanced to the finals three times. Jack Johnson and George Foreman made it to the finals twice. Rocky Marciano, Larry Holmes, Jim Corbett and Mike Tyson all advanced to the finals once. All boxers were represented with their prime ratings.

The DB SUMMARY file reports (semifinals & finals excerpts)….

Tournament # 1

Semifinals


Muhammad Ali W TKO 15 Lennox Lewis

Jack Dempsey W KO 6 George Foreman

Final

Muhammad Ali W TKO 8 Jack Dempsey

Tournament # 2

Semifinals

Mike Tyson W KO 15 Jim Jeffries

Jack Dempsey W u 15 Jack Johnson

Final

Jack Dempsey W u 15 Mike Tyson

Tournament # 3

Semifinals

Joe Louis W TKO 15 Buster Douglas

George Foreman W TKO 2 Ken Norton

Final

Joe Louis W KO 2 George Foreman

Tournament # 4

Semifinals

Larry Holmes W u 15 Mike Tyson

Joe Frazier W u 15 Ken Norton

Final

Joe Frazier W u 15 Larry Holmes

Tournament # 5

Semifinals

Muhammad Ali W u 15 Joe Louis

Jack Johnson W m 15 Jack Dempsey

Final

Muhammad Ali W u 15 Jack Johnson

Tournament # 6

Semifinals

Muhammad Ali W KO 5 Joe Louis

Jim Corbett W u 15 Jack Dempsey

Final

Muhammad Ali W KO 12 Jim Corbett

Tournament # 7

Semifinals

Muhammad Ali W KO 12 Joe Louis

Jack Johnson W u 15 Jack Dempsey

Final

Muhammad Ali W u 15 Jack Johnson

Tournament # 8

Semifinals

Muhammad Ali W u 15 Lennox Lewis

Jack Dempsey W KO 11 Jack Johnson

Final

Muhammad Ali W KO 11 Jack Dempsey

Tournament # 9

Semifinals

Joe Louis W KO 3 Muhammad Ali

George Foreman W TKO 6 Rocky Marciano

Final

Joe Louis W TKO 4 George Foreman

Tournament # 10

Semifinals

Joe Louis W KO 6 Gene Tunney

Rocky Marciano W u 15 Jack Johnson

Final

Joe Louis W u 15 Rocky Marciano

Endnotes: American championship boxers who won the foregoing tournaments fought in their prime during the following presidential eras. 1) Ali during the John F. Kennedy & Lyndon B. Johnson eras; 2) Louis during the Franklin D. Roosevelt era; 3) Dempsey during the Woodrow Wilson and Warren Harding eras; and 4) Frazier during the Richard M. Nixon & Johnson eras.

Different seeds will surely produce varying results. Moreover, when a single elimination format is utilized, it may sporadically result in a fluke win or upset (just as in real-life boxing). One tournament series is not definitive. Multiple sets of tournaments and/or bouts between individual boxers are needed before making a judgment.


Theodore Roosevelt Boxed As A College Student, Governor and President

Theodore Roosevelt took up competitive boxing as a student at Harvard. He also boxed with sparring partners as Governor of New York and as President.


Theodore Roosevelt on boxing....

Theodore Roosevelt was a big fan of boxing. As I've stated before, Teddy Roosevelt boxed in college at Harvard and sparred when he was the President of the United States. Roosevelt discussed the benefits of boxing in his autobiography and that he was friends with boxing champions Battling Nelson, Bob Fitzsimmons and John L. Sullivan. Stay tuned for my Data Boxing replays featuring Nelson, Fitzsimmons and Sullivan.

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Big_CityOffline
Post subject: Old-Timers Heavyweight Boxing Tournament  PostPosted: Mar 12, 2012 - 08:24 PM



Joined: Mar 19, 2006
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Old-Timers Heavyweight Boxing Tournament

In honor of former President of the United States Theodore Roosevelt, I staged an old-timers heavyweight boxing tournament, featuring two of President Roosevelt's prize-fighting friends, John L. Sullivan and Bob Fitzsimmmons. Theodore Roosevelt boxed in college at Harvard. He also boxed with sparring partners as President of the United States and was an avid boxing fan.

Old-Timers Computer Heavyweight Tournament Using Data Boxing PC: Twenty-six boxers were selected for this tourney. It included boxers that were rated in BoxRec's top 10 from 1900 to 1910 (except John L. Sullivan, who last fought in 1892, and Frank Slavin, who was active in the 1900s but was past the age of 40 - Slavin was represented with his peak 1891-1896 ratings). The bouts were set for 20 rounds and the scoring was by rounds.

Teddy Roosevelt's friend John L. Sullivan made it to the semifinals where he lost to Jack Johnson by UD over 20 rounds, while Bob Fitzsimmons made it to the Sweet 16. In the final, James Jeffries (at his peak) avenged his real-life loss to Jack Johnson in 1910. Jeffries kayoed Johnson in the 5th. The complete tournament results are posted at my website.

_________________
"So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I fight to win. I'm not just shadow-boxing or playing around." (I Cor. 9:26)
 
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